Driscoll Rewrites History

SPEAKERS: Julie Roys

Note: This is a rough transcript and may contain some errors or mistranscriptions.

Mark Driscoll: How dare you! Who in the hell do you think you are? For me, I don’t worry about getting in trouble, I worry about getting in trouble with God. There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus, and by God’s grace it’ll be a mountain by the time we’re done. There are times that I’m in sin and I’m a sinner and I’ve blown it many times in my life. Scandal disqualifies you. Controversy actually may prove that you’re qualified. Everybody I read in the Bible got in some trouble that was doing their job. I was saved by the Lord, I was called by the Lord. I function out of a deep and profound in the root system fear of the Lord. You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options.

Julie Roys: Pastor Mark Driscoll is back and as you heard, he is rewriting history. What happened at Mars Hill wasn’t a scandal or anything disqualifying, it was just controversy. And any faithful preacher of the gospel is going to be controversial, right? Well, that’s what Driscoll said on a podcast with Jeremy Boring, a screenwriter and co-founder of The Daily Wire. And not surprisingly, it sparked a firestorm of controversy. The backlash was so strong that Boring produced a second podcast addressing the controversy. Both the initial podcast and follow-up podcast were maddening because Driscoll is such a good liar and Boring, by his own admission, didn’t do his job. He didn’t investigate the allegations about Mark Driscoll. Sure, he knew that Driscoll had left his former Mars Hill Church under a pall of controversy. But Boring admits he didn’t research the facts to determine what was true. This is malpractice. If you’re going to platform a controversial leader accused of bullying and abuse, you owe it to the public to do your homework, especially when that leader had a pattern of abusing his own congregation.

Mark Driscoll: How dare you? Who in the hell do you think you are?

Julie Roys: Especially when that leader openly promoted a godless philosophy of ministry that people who get in your way are expendable.

Mark Driscoll: There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus. And by God’s grace, it’ll be a mountain by the time we’re done. You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options.

Julie Roys: What Mark Driscoll did at Mars Hill is one of the most well-documented, if not the most well-documented, examples of bullying and spiritual abuse out there. It was the focus of the wildly popular Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast that had more than two and a half million downloads. But in case you missed it, Driscoll’s persistent, domineering and arrogant behavior was so bad, it prompted an investigation by Mars Hill’s two governing boards in 2014. At that time, Mars Hill was one of the fastest growing multi-site megachurches in the United States and Driscoll was the brand. But his abusive behavior was so bad, the elders removed him and asked him to submit to a restoration plan. But instead of submitting to their plan and working on his character flaws, Driscoll took his marbles and went home. He abruptly resigned and this spectacularly popular megachurch imploded almost overnight. The Mars Hill saga is a very harrowing example of what happens when a pastor’s gifting far exceeds his character. But the tale doesn’t end there. As so many disqualified pastors do, Driscoll went underground for a couple of years and then reemerged in Scottsdale, Arizona. And there he’s planted another church, Trinity Church. And at Trinity, there’s another pile of dead bodies he’s run over, which I’ve reported on extensively. But this time, Driscoll doesn’t have any elders or overseers to remove him. He is the uncontested boss. Here’s the church’s 2026 annual report. As you can see, the corporation has no members and the sole director is Mark Driscoll. The president and chief executive officer is Mark Driscoll. There is a secretary, Kerry Dodd. But Kerry is the executive pastor at Trinity Church, meaning he’s the employee that Driscoll can fire at will. Driscoll is building his platform again. And the church is growing because he’s an incredibly gifted speaker. And he’s playing to his conservative male audience, which feels like churches become sissified and full of, to quote Driscoll, suburban Karens. And influencers like Jeremy Boring are eating it up without examining the source. And I know there are scores of professing Christians out there who love what Driscoll is selling and will plug their ears. But for those who have ears to hear, this episode will present the inconvenient truths that Jeremy Boring did not take the time to learn. I have seen the devastation Mark Driscoll leaves in his wake, and I believe to my core that he is a narcissistic wolf in sheep’s clothing. He may have right doctrine or orthodoxy, but he does not display right practice or orthopraxy. He is the antithesis of a shepherd, though he may know how to play one on stage and among people important to his advancement, like Jeremy Boring. He is cruel, vindictive, domineering, and lacking the fruit of the spirit. But he is incredibly cunning and convincing. And that’s why I’m doing this podcast. Driscoll is trying to rewrite history and say he’s qualified to lead a church. In this episode, I’ll reveal what he said on Boring’s podcast and then I’ll present the facts. First, Driscoll argued again that what happened at Mars Hill wasn’t a disqualifying scandal. It was just controversy.

Mark Driscoll: To me, there’s a massive chasm of difference between scandal and controversy. You know, scandal disqualifies you. Controversy actually may prove that you’re qualified. Everybody I read in the Bible got in some trouble that was doing their job. I mean, Paul started riots, multiple. Jesus got crucified. The disciples got arrested. We do have the prison epistles.

Jeremy Boring: We’re the same guy who said that you need to be above reproach and have a good reputation with outsiders.

Mark Driscoll: He does some of his best work from jail. And so for me, scandal is, as a pastor, as a Christian leader, did you cheat on your wife? Did you teach heresy? Did you go prodigal or apostate for a season? Um, did you, did you steal? Did you commit a crime? You know, are you a secret drug addict or, you know, whatever? That’s scandal. Um, you know, Muhammad’s a pedophile. That’s controversial, but it’s a fact. Um, socialism is a half step to communism and a lie. That’s, and Vladimir Lenin said it was two-step process. That’s controversial, but that’s not scandalous. And so for me, um, I don’t worry about getting in trouble. I worry about getting in trouble with God. I function out of a deep and profound in the root system, fear of the Lord. And I know that, um, I was saved by the Lord. I was called by the Lord. I am, uh, went under his anointing. I serve at his pleasure. There are times that I’m in sin and I’m a sinner and I, I’ve blown it many times in my life. Um, but at the end of the day, like I, I belong to Jesus Christ and my job is to be obedient to his calling, whatever that price may be.

Julie Roys: So again, Driscoll says that he’s guilty of being controversial, but there was no scandal. There was nothing really that might disqualify him from ministry. Well, let’s go over the facts. There was a 2014 investigation concerning Driscoll and it was done by the two governing boards there at Mars Hill church. And it concluded that he had been guilty and I quote of arrogance, responding to conflict with a quick temper and harsh speech and leading the staff and elders in a domineering manner. However, the boards did specify that Driscoll had never quote, been charged with any immorality, illegality, or heresy. Most of the charges involved attitudes and behaviors reflected by a domineering style of leadership, but is being a bully disqualifying? Well, friends, let’s just look at the scriptures. First Timothy three, one and two, here’s a trustworthy saying, whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, and able to teach. Or Titus one seven says, since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless, not overbearing, not quick tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Similarly, first Peter five, two and three, be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them, not because you must, but because you are willing as God wants you to be, not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve, not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. So according to Driscoll, the things that he did being domineering and harsh and quick tempered, that’s not a scandal. And later he argues that’s not disqualifying from ministry, but clearly, according to scripture, it is. If Driscoll doesn’t remedy these character flaws, he’s still disqualified. And I’m going to give evidence that he hasn’t remedied these character flaws. In fact, I think they’ve gotten even worse. Also, Driscoll refers to the apostle Paul starting riots and Jesus being crucified as evidence that faithful Christian leaders are controversial. Listen, Paul started riots for preaching the gospel, not for bullying people. For example, in Ephesus, a crowd rioted because Paul preached that gods made with hands are not gods. And this threatened the shrine business of the Ephesian god called Artemis. The rioters were yelling, “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians.” Clearly, what they were upset with was that Paul was eating into their business. Similarly, in Thessalonica, a Jewish mob attacked the house where Paul and Silas were staying because the two were turning the world upside down and saying that there is another king, this King Jesus. In every single case, the flashpoint was the gospel. It was not Paul’s bad character. So this is completely a deflection by Driscoll. It has no bearing on actual reality. Likewise, Jesus was crucified because he claimed that he was God and could forgive sins, not for his bad character. Scripture makes it clear that Jesus was entirely innocent and no one could accuse him of sin. So Driscoll’s insinuation that he’s controversial just because he’s so faithful is just blatant deception. But this is classic Driscoll. He’s repeatedly sounded this theme over the years and he doubles down on this false narrative in Boring’s podcast.

Mark Driscoll: I look at things like Black Lives Matter. I look at things like COVID and I look at things like the most recent election. And man, if you’re a loud mouth preacher in a bright blue dot, you got some very complicated variables. Because in the Bible, those who are prophet, and by prophet I don’t mean somebody who preaches, somebody who writes the scriptures. I’m not saying that. Prophet is simply, they take the word of God, and it’s absolutely targeted to the need. Like all scripture is true, but for this need, we need this part of the Bible explained. It’s almost like, you know, you watch Top Gun and it’s like only one pilot can drop one bomb and if he hits the right shaft, we win. You know, that’s more of a prophetic function. It’s like, I need to get over the target and I need to bring the right scripture to bear so that it hits the target and does, you know, does the explosive work that it is appointed to do. I told my kids, I’m sorry that I’m your dad. They’re like, Dad, we love you. And, you know, we’re glad you’re our dad and we love the Lord. It’s like, but I’m sorry that I’m your dad. Because if you just had another dad, you wouldn’t go through everything that you go through and you wouldn’t have to deal with some of the things that you deal with. And yeah, I mean, pickets, protests, death threats, security issues, you know, slander, lies, just stuff that your kids go through. And it’s like, man, like you’re just kids. Like you should be able to go outside and ride your bike and just, you know, have a phone. And if somebody sends you something, it shouldn’t necessarily be an attack on your dad. But as my kids have gotten older, I’ve, I’ve apologized to them that I was their father.

Julie Roys: Driscoll is taking it sort of next level. So he’s not only saying that, uh, he was a part of a controversy and this controversy was because he was so prophetic, but now he’s, he’s saying it’s persecution. Like I was so prophetic that I got persecuted. My family got persecuted. And this is not new. Uh, within a week of his abrupt resignation from Mars Hill, Driscoll appeared on stage at a pastor’s conference at none other than Robert Morris’s gateway church. And instead of owning and repenting of his abusive behavior that led to his resignation, again, had nothing to do with his prophetic voice, had everything to do with his domineering bullying behavior. Driscoll played the victim at Morris’s church. And he repeated this theme of persecution and the congregation bought it. And you’ll hear it here. Of course they had no idea what had just happened at Mars Hill. They only knew that Robert Morris, who’s now a convicted pedophile, I might mention that he got up and claimed that most of what have been printed about Driscoll online were lies and that Christianity is the only religion that shoots is wounded. I had that clip of what Driscoll then said on stage, which I played on a podcast for Sutton Turner three years ago. Now Sutton Turner was an executive elder at Mars Hill, and he was witness to everything that happened there in 2014. So here’s the clip from Gateway Church from October 2014. And then there’s Sutton’s comments about it on my podcast in 2022.

Mark Driscoll: I’ve cried a lot lately. It’s been a rough season for the family. I guess you could take a seat. And for those of you, I would just say, don’t overlook your family as first ministry. And for me, we just really appreciate your prayer for our family. We’ve got five kids, three boys, two girls, ages eight to 17. And we’ve moved three times for safety issues. People arrested at our home, death threats, address posted online, all kinds of things. And more recently, it’s gotten very severe. We came home from break, there was rusty nails all over the driveway. We had a night where the kids want to sleep out in the tent. And I got a call that my address was posted online by the media. And so we went out of town for a few days, came back. The kids said, no, we got to sleep in the tent. So I didn’t sleep. But we were in the tent all night and woke up in the morning at about 6:30 or so. And huge rocks about the size of baseballs come flying at my kids, eight, 10 and 12 years of age, call the police, flee into the house for their safety. A few days later, I think it was, I don’t even remember, the media flies overhead with a helicopter and is trying to flush us out for a story. And that night, we’re hiding in the house. My eight year old son comes down and he’s wearing a military jacket. He’s loading up his airsoft rifle. And he looks at me and he says, hey, dad, is this jacket bulletproof? I just started crying. I said, why is that little buddy? He said, well, it’s bad guys in the helicopter come to shoot the family, right? He didn’t have any concept of media coverage. He thought it was bad guys coming to kill his family. And he was going to defend his sister. And so praise God, he’s finally sleeping in his bed again. But it’s been a while to get him to do that with night terrors. And so there’s just a lot going on for our family. I appreciate Pastor Robert and the team here. I just want to come here to sing, to pray, to learn, to grow, to repent, to heal. And God is surrounded me with some great pastors and friends. And if I could just say anything, it’s every pastor needs a pastor. And you pastors, your family needs you to be their pastor. So thank you.

Sutton Turner: I lived down the street from Mark. He lived on, let’s just call it an acre and a half, probably. Incredibly tall pine trees. I mean, we’re talking massive in diameter and 40 feet tall and incredibly thick. It was like a forest behind his house. The place where he told me, because I asked him, I was like, okay, so where did this specifically happen? Oh, they parked right here. Okay. So, like, we’re talking a hundred feet from where the tent is. And unless these rocks are able to go sideways around, because you can’t throw it over.

Julie Roys: Yeah.

Sutton Turner: Because we’re talking 40, 50 feet trees. It was just, those are the types of stories that to say that they’re unbelievable. When you hear it, you’re like, oh, super empathy. But then like me, I’m like, wait a minute. So how did this happen? Where did they park the car? So they threw it and it went through all these trees and to hit, like, it’s just astounding. If you don’t know where he lived also, there was a hospital with a heliport within two blocks of his house. There were helicopters flying over all the time because it was the first flight responders in Edmonds. So like, so some of the details that he leaves out to, to, to elicit empathy and to tell his side of the story work. But if you don’t know all the details, then you’re like, oh, I’m feel so sorry for him. I can’t believe this is happening. I can’t believe that these elders did that to him.

Julie Roys: And this is why I say Driscoll is a great liar. He’s so believable when he says things, but when you fact check, you discover it’s simply doesn’t match the facts. But his claims on boring podcast get even more fantastic. I had to listen to this one twice to believe he actually said it when discussing what happened at Mars Hill. Driscoll claimed he was cleared of everything and welcome back.

Mark Driscoll: After I’d resigned the church, I was cleared of everything and welcome back. And it’s all the nonsense online that has no basis in reality. I was like, please check everything. I can’t, I can’t wait to stand before Jesus. I can’t wait.

Julie Roys: Okay. This is just insane. And there are literally dozens of elders and members of Mars Hill’s former board of overseers who could attest to this. So here’s what happened. In 2014, seven elders were commissioned to investigate allegations of misconduct involving Mark Driscoll. They interviewed 40 people and came up with 25 formal charges against Driscoll. And Sutton Turner has actually published these charges. You can go online, you can read all of the notes and documentations and even transcripts. He’s also has Driscoll’s response to these charges, which again, he saved in meeting notes and transcripts of meetings from 2014. The charges focused on arrogance, bullying and domineering behavior. So here is a sample of the conversation from a meeting on September 23rd, 2014 between the elders and Mark. And there are 25 charges that were leveled against Mark. We don’t have time to go through every one, but I just want to give you a sample of them so that you can see what, you know, some, some of the charges that were bought and some of the specifics, and you can see what kind of pastor Mark Driscoll really was. And I would say is. So this is the meeting notes showing conversation that happened right before the board of elders went over some of these charges with Mark. And we have a board of elder member who says, “Can you talk a little bit about domineering? Do you think that is a fair characterization of how you were living in that time?” Mark responds, “I don’t know how I could have led MHC, Marcell Church, with the size and complexity under those governance restrictions. Would I say that I was acting godly? No. But do I see another way to have done it? No. Imagine dozens of these men who were involved in the process. Should I have resigned? Then I would have left all these people. Right now, I would say that I’m taking it. My reaction today is that I was domineering at times. At present, I’m not behaving that way.” I’m going to skip down. “What is best for me in the church has been in conflict. For sure, there were times that there was domineering and conflict. I boldly pushed through it. And some would say this is leadership. And others would say that I ran over them.” And this is something that Mark continues to say in the podcast with Jeremy Boring. And we’re limited on time, so I can’t go to everything. But he basically says, “This is just my leadership style.” And I didn’t really have any choice. It’s what strong leaders do. Um, so again, consistent with what we’re seeing today that he says. Okay, this is one of the charges. Charge number 16, February 2013. In the same meeting, Mark slandered four recently departed central staffers by saying, “They were all working two jobs at once. They come in every day to work at Mars Hill and build their businesses while they were here.” Mark responds, “Everything I’ve ever done is for the benefit of the church. The whole reason I did campaigns is because it would grow the church. I put together campaigns to benefit the church, not benefit me. I did do a lot of work with Acts 29, but I volunteered for 10 years. There was no income for me. Every year, I have been one of the top 10 givers of the church. Skipping down. This will sound arrogant and proud, but I am the founder. No one criticizes Bill Gates. I was working hard for three years with no salary. I have gone 18 years without a bonus or sabbatical. Now, on force, no fun sabbatical. Craig Groeschel told me that no one builds a platform at his church. What I think is notable about what he said here is this may sound proud and arrogant, but I’m going to say it anyway. And he does this several times in this meeting. And he says, “I’m the founder.” So he’s basically pulling clout, saying, “I’m important. I’m the founder. I get to do these things.” Is that pastoral? Is that a right way to respond? That’s how Mark Driscoll responded. Charge 7, May 18, 2012, in a meeting of the full council, convened to vote on the slate of nominees for the new Board of Advisors and Accountability, Mark was explaining to the elders that under the newly revised bylaws, the full council would have the right to review any changes by the Board. One elder corrected Mark with his own understanding that the new bylaws, in fact, allow the Board to make decisions without running it by the full council. Mark’s response to that elder was bullying, with some elders present recalling language to the effect of, “I don’t give a shit what you think. I’m trying to be nice to you guys by asking for your opinion. In reality, we don’t need your vote to make this decision. This is what we’re doing.” Mark responds, “I own it. I get really frustrated when we have to do bylaws. Domineering, arrogant, threatening, bullying. May 8, 2012, yes.” So at least he owns it. He admits that he’s domineering and bullying, but he doesn’t sound sorry. He’s like, “Yeah, I do it. I get frustrated when I have to do bylaws.” Again, pastoral? Charge number five, early 2012. In a meeting with lead pastors, shaming and bullying of a lead pastor to break his conscience and cuss in front of the group. Sexual harassment of another lead pastor by way of inappropriate comment about his sex life. Threats of termination. Mark responds, “I have called former lead pastor in March or April. He was offended in the meeting. I called former lead pastor. I had thought we were good, but I called him and apologized for sinning against him in the meeting. I asked for forgiveness. Former lead pastor said, ‘I wasn’t offended and I feel like they are sinning. If I had been offended by it, I would have talked to you.'” So again, he admits it, but he says, “But hey, I talked to the pastor. He wasn’t really offended.” I don’t believe the pastor wasn’t offended. This has become a very famous situation that happened. Apparently, Mark was trying to get the pastor, some have said to say the F word, others have said to say the D word. Either way, the pastor didn’t feel comfortable. And quite frankly, should he? But Mark, I mean, think about this. A pastor, a lead pastor at a mega church trying to get another elder pastor to cuss. I mean, what on earth is going on and why would anybody do that? But again, Mark admits it happened. No problem. He doesn’t respond to the sexual harassment and what he said about the other pastor. Unbelievable behavior. But again, this was Mark Driscoll. Charge 2, October 2011. Mark said in a meeting that he did not want a certain staff elder who was not slim to take on a certain prominent leadership role because, quote, “his fat ass is not the image we want for our church,” unquote. Mark’s response, “I don’t remember and don’t know.” So this time, Mark doesn’t confirm it, but he doesn’t deny it either. And he doesn’t say, “Hey, that’s something I would never say.” And he doesn’t seem sorry, right? He doesn’t say, “Wow, if I said that, that’s awful.” He just like, “I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t remember.” Again, this is not pastoral behavior, but clearly this was a pattern with Mark Driscoll. Now, after this September meeting in 2014, there apparently were several more meetings and the notes reveal that there was a clear disagreement between the Board of Elders and the Board of Overseers. And I only bring this up because there’s been some question about whether or not Mark was really disqualified. So he had two boards at his church. There was a Board of Elders and this was made up of local pastors at the church. And these are people that had interacted with Mark. These are people who had been harmed by Mark. These are people that saw him on a regular basis. Then there was this Board of Overseers. And these were these were kind of big name pastors. Interestingly, Paul Tripp was one of them, who’s a very well known author and speaker. And he resigned before they got to this point. He was like, “This is one of the most toxic churches I’ve ever seen.” And he just didn’t want anything to do with it at that point. James McDonald, who, if you don’t know anything about James McDonald, go to the Roy’s report and look under investigations. I’ve done multiple investigations on him. He got fired because of our reporting and because of his abusive behavior. He was, by the way, thought of as Mark Driscoll’s big brother. Like the two of them, apparently when they got together were just absolutely unbearable. And if you know anything about James McDonald, you would know why. He was, again, an incredible bully. And just as a example of how bullying he was after he was fired, just a couple of years ago, he got mad at a woman in California over a parking issue. And as a result, attacked this woman, like fell on top of her, broke her femur. This is the kind of man he is and has been this whole time. But again, this was one of one of the celebrity pastors on Mark Driscoll’s board of overseers. So again, these were out of town pastors, kind of big name Christian figures, but they didn’t live with Mark Driscoll, so to speak. They didn’t work with him every day. So they weren’t aware of maybe the side of him that the board of elders saw who worked with him every single day. But the board of overseers, they wanted to state that Driscoll could return to ministry on January 4th. So they wanted to remove him for a period and then have him come back on a specific date on January 4th, 2015. And again, this is all happening in October, these meetings. So now it’s October, it was September. Now these meetings are in October. But they also said, and I quote, that he could return to ministry on quote, “the assumption of growth and change.” The board of elders, on the other hand, who were victims of his bullying, felt Driscoll should be removed indefinitely, or at least for much longer. But it’s clear from the notes that by the October 14th meeting, the elders and overseers had come to an agreement on several things. So on October 14th, 2014, the board of elder member says, “there’s a bit of an impasse on the exact details, but we all agree that Mark needs to be rebuked publicly for sin and is not currently fit to lead.” These are the big things. We have a disagreement on what removal from leadership looks like and a timeframe. But skip down and there’s a board of overseers member who says, “it is obvious for us that we haven’t experienced the abuse that you men have.” So there was no argument from the board of overseers that Mark Driscoll had abused his own elders there at his church. So then a board of overseers member says, “let’s list out the items where there is agreement on. One, removal from leadership with intent of restoration. The BOO would define that as he is no longer for this indefinite period of time, the person who is driving the organization as the main spokesperson and visionary. He is not making final decisions. Two, Mark needs a public rebuke. Three, Mark needs a guided healing plan.” So then there’s a meeting to communicate these things with Dave Bruscus, who was an executive elder along with Sutton Turner, a board of overseers member, and then Mark DeMoss, Mark Driscoll’s PR guy. And apparently they discuss the things that there was disagreement on, but also what the agreement were. And based on that, that same day, Mark Driscoll releases a coordinated statement through the media that he has resigned from Mars Hill Church. And then the Board of Advisors and Accountability, also known as the Board of Overseers, releases a statement after Driscoll resigns.

So Driscoll’s claim that he was cleared of the charges is patently false. You can read in those meeting notes, there was full agreement by the Board of Elders and the Board of Overseers that Mark Driscoll should be publicly rebuked. He should be removed from leadership and he should submit to a restoration plan. Mark, instead of doing that, abruptly resigned. There was no resolution. There was no restoration. But if there’s any doubt about whether or not he was cleared, it certainly was dispelled by the statement released by the former Mars Hill Church elders in 2021 in Christianity Today. And I’m going to read it. So here’s the letter that was released to Christianity Today again in 2021. And as you’ll see, some of this letter was based on continuing allegations leveled against Mark Driscoll of bullying and abuse from his staff members or former staff members at Trinity Church in Scottsdale, Arizona. So it says, We are saddened to learn that Mark Driscoll has continued in a pattern of sinful actions towards staff members and congregants as he pastors the Trinity Church in Scottsdale, Arizona. These sinful leadership behaviors appear similar to what he exhibited in his leadership role at Mars Hill Church in Seattle. We are troubled that he continues to be unrepentant despite the fact that these sins have been previously investigated, verified and brought to his attention by his fellow elders prior to his abrupt resignation. Accordingly, we believe that Mark is presently unfit for serving the church in the office of pastor. Knowing that we have no formal authority in this current matter, we hope that Mark will voluntarily resign his position immediately. We also hope that those who have influence over Mark would encourage him to do so. We sympathize with those who have been wounded by Mark and pray for their healing. We have engaged and heard from many former Mars Hill Church staff and members who were hurt by domineering leadership, harsh speech and angry outbursts and are sobered by the devastation victims have suffered. We realize that Mark left deep pain in the lives of many by being unwilling to seek restoration and reconciliation with those he has sinned against. We grieve the harm that has come to the Trinity Church as well as the damage to the reputation of Jesus among unbelievers through Mark’s words and actions. We plead with Mark to participate in and submit to Christian conciliation in the important work of pursuing repentance, reconciliation and restoration with those he has harmed and sinned against. We are disappointed in the leaders who affirmed Mark’s role in planting the Trinity Church. They provided a ministry endorsement from a distance rather than investigating carefully the charges against him and leading him in a process of repentance and reconciliation. This translocal advisory structure has allowed Mark to avoid the accountability he needs. We hope and pray by the grace of God that Mark will submit himself to a prolonged season under the godly leadership and direction of a local church body and elder team. Many of us stand willing and ready to pursue reconciliation with Mark and assist others who also would like to do the same. Our hope is that after being restored in the future, Mark will find an appropriate place to serve and be served in the body of Christ. However, we don’t believe that it would be prudent or healthy for him to be in a position of spiritual authority in a church or ministry setting for the foreseeable future in faith, hope and love through Jesus, former Mars Hill Church elders. And then, amazing how many people assigned that, dozens of former Mars Hill Church elders.

So again, Mark Driscoll was disqualified once at Mars Hill. Instead of dealing with it, he left. He is still disqualified. He’s never gone back, never gone back and reconciled with the people that he sinned against. But he’s continued to sin against people at the Trinity Church where he is. And if you go and look at our investigations tab on Mark Driscoll, you’ll see dozens of articles that we’ve published about that. And I’ll get to that in just a little bit. But here is how in sin, that Mark Driscoll’s claims get. In 2022, okay, this is eight years after Driscoll abruptly resigned from Mars Hill Church. Driscoll introduced an entirely new narrative saying that the elders at Mars Hill were out to get him. And if he hadn’t resigned, they were going to accuse him of adultery. Take a listen.

Mark Driscoll: Some years ago, we were in a season where massive media firestorm, lots of conflict and controversy. So, okay, investigate everything. I know I’m not disqualified. I know who I am. I can’t wait to stand before Jesus. It’s going to be a great day for me. Not that I’m perfect, but I, I know who I am. I know who he is. And, uh, and we were asked to return and I’ll share something with you. I’ve never shared. I don’t know if it’s a good idea or not. I’ll ask Grace. She just, she did this. Okay. So, um, um, so, um, I was in one end of the house. Grace was in the other. God spoke to us both said, you’re released. You need to resign immediately. And God told me a trap is set. He didn’t tell Grace that. So she came in. She’s like, God just spoke to me. I was like, God just spoke to me. And, uh, she said, I said, what did you hear? She said, we’re released. I said, I heard we’re released. That trap was set. So, so we walked away, didn’t defend ourselves. Uh, took 18 months, didn’t do social media, didn’t do public ministry, just wanted to heal up and be with my family and get them into safety in a very dangerous season of our life. And so during that time, I met with some of my critics and enemies, one-on-one or small group, people that had been friends, people who claimed to be Christians, some who were pastors, some who still are pastors. And I, I asked him, I said, uh, I said, God told me a trap was set. So I asked him, I said, do you know what that might be? And these people that we had known said, uh, yeah, the nuclear option was we were going to accuse you of adultery. This was at Panera, multiple meetings at Panera. I was like, you guys discussed accusing me of adultery. I was like, you know, that’s not true. I’ve been faithful to my wife my whole life. I adore my wife. I love my wife and she loves me. We’ve been faithful to each other. We’ve been open our whole marriage about any struggles we have had because we know that every married couple has some hardship to go through. And we have never been dishonest, but we have never done that. We’ve never done anything remotely like that. They said, yeah, that’s why we kept it as the nuclear option. I was like, to get me what? They said, to get you out of the pulpit. They said, because we knew that if we accused you of adultery and enough of us signed the open letter, that ultimately there would be such a media firestorm that you would have to exit ministry, exit preaching God’s word for probably a year while a full investigation was done. During that time, we could take over and lead and be in charge. And then we figured one of two things would happen. Either you would come back, but we would be in charge, or you would never come back. And you’d be done forever.

Julie Roys: So this allegation that there was a trap was what prompted my 2022 podcast with Sutton Turner. And this is how he responded to this new allegation by Mark Driscoll.

Sutton Turner: For him to say, you guys discussed adultery. This is exactly the reason why I released in January all of the notes of all of the investigative meetings from September, or excuse me, from August of 2014 through the time that Mark resigned. They’re amazing notes. I took out the elders’ names, and I replaced them with numbers because who said what is not important. But I did think that someone taking time to read through what these elders did and how they were praying for Mark and how they wanted Mark ultimately restored. They wanted to see him repent. They wanted to see him reconcile. But they wanted him to be restored. And that never happened. And then for him to say that those men were discussing adultery, it’s just a flat lie. I mean, like, I have every meeting note, and let me just tell you, there was none. When he talks about a nuclear option, that was a word that I used in early 2013 when we were talking about setting up the Board of Elders. And the nuclear option was basically all of these churches being separated in independent churches, which actually is what happened. These churches did. But that was the nuclear option. And that was around an investigation of one of the three of us that were executive elders. If we were found guilty of formal charges and we were having to be removed from our position. That was what that was. And then. And when he talks about an investigation would have to be launched. There was already an investigation of 25 formal charges that disqualified Mark Driscoll based on arrogance, domineering. And what was the other one? Quick temperedness. So like, like, and that’s what he still doesn’t acknowledge to today. He was found disqualified. And the people that investigated him and had over 20, or excuse me, over 40 different interviews with people that were directly sinned against. That’s the information that they did. They did a full investigation. And that’s why I produced all of those notes. So that it’s don’t take my words for it. Read the people, the elders of the church that investigated Mark Driscoll. Read their own words. Read how they wrestled with this horrible thing that they had to do and to go through. And read Mark’s response to being formal charges. Read how he blows up. Read all of those things and see for yourself. Make your own judgment. Don’t allow Mark Driscoll to sit there and say that he can, sorry, like for anybody to be as arrogant to think that they can stand in front of Jesus. I mean, I’m sorry. Like all of us fall short of the glory of God and Jesus is sinful life. We all have fallen short. So for anybody to me to say, I can’t wait until the day I stand in front of Jesus and tell him how good I am. I mean, it’s just, it’s remarkable. It’s shocking to me.

Julie Roys: That is absolutely a shocking statement that Mark Driscoll made. But again, evidence that the arrogance that he was removed for in 2014 seems to still be there in 2022. But I also interviewed former Mars Hill elder Miles Rohde in 2022 about Driscoll’s allegation that the elders, again, were plotting to get rid of him. Rohde was one of the seven elders who actually was part of that investigation. So they had tasked seven elders specifically to do that. And if anyone would know about a plot, Miles Rohde would. But here’s what he said. Well, let me just ask you, was there any desire to get rid of Mark on that board?

Miles Rohde: No, there wasn’t a desire. There was a desire to protect the flock. And there was a desire to see what the Lord had done in and through Mark and in and through Mars Hill to be done again. The Lord to do that and to even tell a better story than in the first 18 years. Nobody had an ax to grind. Nobody was saying that he needs to go indefinitely or to kick him out, but that he needed to be removed so that the process of healing for the church and for his own soul could be allowed to take place. And we weren’t using the disqualifying word at that time. But I think his actions of resigning the way he did proved, in my opinion, from that point, that was disqualifying.

Julie Roys: So, again, this whole new narrative that Mark put out there in 2022 that these elders were plotting after him, that they were trying to get him. Just there’s no basis in reality to that. And so now the issue isn’t even so much what Mark did back in 2014. I mean, that was awful. And the fact that Driscoll, who pretends to be this tough guy, right? I mean, he’s always talking about how sissify the church is and it needs to be more masculine and real men and all these things. I mean, again, this tough guy, but he didn’t have the guts. Mark Driscoll didn’t have the guts to face his own character flaws and submit to a restoration plan. I mean, that’s awful. He cowardly resigned. That is a cowardly action. But that’s what he did and he left. But what’s worse is that Mark Driscoll continues to invent these outrageous lies. So he’s not only a bully, he is a pathological liar. And if he wasn’t disqualified before in 2014, he certainly is now. But there is so much more. One of the other narratives, or I’ll call them excuses, that Driscoll gives for his mistakes at Mars Hill on the podcast with Jeremy Boring is that he started ministry so young. And there are several things wrong with that narrative. But before I get into that, here’s what he said.

Mark Driscoll: You know, God saved me radically and I should have waited longer to be a pastor. There’s God’s timing and then there’s God’s calling. I knew God’s calling, but I think I hastened God’s timing as a young man. I was 19. He spoke to me audibly. He said, Mary Grace, preach the Bible, train men, plant churches. I wasn’t even in a charismatic church. I didn’t know God still spoke to people. And so God dropped me in downtown, chop, zone, Antifa, socialism, Seattle. That’s where I started. With hunk rock anarchist college kids during the grunge era when everybody’s doing black tar heroin and hates their dad. That’s where I start. And that’s all I’ve ever known. I didn’t grow up in the church. I didn’t grow up in the evangelical subculture. I didn’t grow up in the suburbs. I didn’t know.

Julie Roys: So here’s what’s wrong with that whole narrative. Driscoll may have begun ministry when he was 19 years old, but he was 44 when he resigned from Mars Hill Church. By this time, he’s been in ministry for 25 years, regardless of when he started ministry. By 44, he should have developed some Christlike character. He should know how to love and not control, how to submit, not just call the shots. But now, Driscoll’s in his mid-50s, and his behavior has only gotten worse. And as I mentioned earlier, Driscoll planted Trinity Church a couple years after leaving Mars Hill Church. And I’ve interviewed former staff from that church. One of them is Chad Fries, and he’s Driscoll’s former head of security there at the Trinity Church. And here’s Chad’s description of his first staff meeting with Driscoll. And again, this is fast-forwarding several years, and now at this point, Driscoll is in his mid-50s. And this is how he’s behaving.

Chad Fries: And he was very soft-spoken the first, I don’t know, 20, 30 minutes. Then he got real angry, and he’s like, he said, Chad, I do not trust a single man on my staff. I don’t trust him, not a single one of them. And sprinkling a few curse words in there. So he’s going on and on, Chad. I don’t effing trust any of them. Who knows what could happen next? He’s one thing after another. He turns around and looks at Brandon. Now, mind you, Pastor Brandon Anderson’s sitting on the couch behind him, not even at the table with us. He’s behind him. So Mark turns around, and he points at Brandon’s face, and he yells at him. And he’s like, you know, this is your effing problem, and you better effing fix it. And just cursing him and yelling at him, and Brandon’s face turns blood red. And he turns over, looks at me, and looks back at Mark, and he says, yes, sir, you know, I got it. We’ll fix it. Yes, sir, we’ll fix it. He said, that goes for all the men on my staff. Like, you all need to get your shit in order. And all the men in the room are, yes, sir, yes, sir. Whatever you say, sir, absolutely. And that’s the type of behavior. And I can see that culture and that environment. Again, this is my first meeting. I’m like, wow, everyone’s a yes man. They’re literally bowing down, doing whatever this guy says.

Julie Roys: So clearly, Driscoll’s bullying behavior hasn’t ended, but that meeting in 2021 is the tip of the iceberg. During his time at Trinity, Chad said he was asked to hire a private investigator to surveil former church members 24-7. The specific church members they were to surveil was a family whose teenage son had dated one of Driscoll’s daughters. And Driscoll kicked out the entire family out of the church because the teenage son, imagine this, had kissed Driscoll’s teenage daughter. Actually, I’ve talked to the son, Vince Manoeli, and he maintains that Driscoll’s daughter actually kissed him. But that’s beside the point. This is how crazy the control is at Driscoll’s church. And if you don’t believe me, here’s a screenshot that Chad gave me of the text between security members and the investigator surveilling the family. So as you can see, looking at these texts, it’s asking whether Angelo works at a certain location. That was Vince Manoeli’s dad. It talks about, you know, he’s been there a very long time. They’re looking, talking about which car they’re in. They’re in a Prius. Then they give a different property where he’s at. I mean, these are just unbelievable. And by the way, one of those in this whole text is Landon Chase. So this is the son-in-law of Mark Driscoll. And he’s saying, as soon as your guy gets back to the house, can you let us know if any cars are missing? So he’s part of this whole surveilling this family. I mean, this is just absolutely crazy. Pastor Brandon Anderson, if you look at the bottom of that second column, another pastor at Trinity Church. And they’re talking, he was part of it, 1055 on property. I mean, this is just, this is just absolutely insane. This is insane. But this is the level of paranoia and control that Mark Driscoll has tried to exert as his church. And friends, this is not godly. This is scary. Absolutely scary. And yet this is the way that Mark Driscoll has continued to behave at his Trinity Church in Scottsdale, Arizona. And frankly, for someone like Jeremy Boring to put him on his podcast is shameful. It’s absolutely shameful. But again, even that isn’t everything. Chad also told me about a loyalty scale that Driscoll maintained.

Chad Fries: I got pulled into another meeting. So it’s Pastor Brandon Anderson and Caleb Glenny. So the three of us were in Brandon’s office. And he says, so Chad, just, you know, Caleb and I just sat through a couple hour session with Pastor Mark and the rest of the staff where we talked about trust levels and relationships. And Mark briefed the staff on what is called the spectrum of trust from a zero to a 10. The higher you are on the spectrum, the more access you get. And I said, access to what? He said, all the access to the Driscolls. The Driscolls are level 10. So the higher you get on that spectrum, the more trust and more access to the Driscolls that you get. And he says, so Chad, security team is like a level nine as a security team because security is very important. And you’re in these private meetings and you’re having these conversations, but you’re not a 10 because you’re not in Driscoll’s personal life. You’re not like doing security at his house, for example. So you’re not fully trusted on a level 10, but your team is like a nine. And he said, so Chad, you’re at like an eight. And I’m like, wait a minute. How am I an eight? I’m the director of security team. Security team is a nine. How am I lower than that? That’s mentally what I’m processing. Like, what is he saying here? And he’s like, you know, your wife may be like a six. Ben is even lower than you, Chad, because he can’t get his wife under control. He’s not leading his family well. He’s not leading his household, which is totally false, by the way. Ben is one of the best husbands and fathers and leaders I’ve ever become friends with or met. I just want to make that clear on the record.

Julie Roys: Well, and not handling your family well means he’s not controlling his wife and controlling her from speaking the truth or associating with people that the church has deemed she can’t associate with. Correct?

Chad Fries: Absolutely. And that’s what he continued to say about a few other people. So he says, Brandon said, well, Ben is a level below you. So he’s probably like a seven. His wife is, you know, his wife is probably like a level three because Ben’s not leading them well. And his wife has relationships with people that the church has deemed as unsafe. These people are toxic. They’re demonic. And she shouldn’t be associating with them. So he said the same thing about Vlad, who is a very devoted. Voluntary has been in every aspect. He runs a men’s ministry table. He runs a personal home life group at his house. He’s a chaplain, all kinds of stuff. You know, Vlad is a step below Ben because his wife has definitely been involved with these toxic relationships. So Vlad’s probably like maybe a five or six. And his wife is like maybe like a one or two. And then he said, so Pastor Dustin, Dustin Blotnick is probably at like a level five. Because his wife, Trina’s a zero. You know, she’s very toxic and very unsafe. And again, as men, you guys are not leading your households well. You’re not getting your wives under control. You’re still allowing them to have these personal friendships and relationships with people that the church doesn’t think that they should be friends with or have these relationships with. And he said, you know, specifically Trina, which is Pastor Dustin’s wife, and then Maria, which is Vlad’s wife. You know, those two ladies, they just can’t sever the ties into these relationships. Then he goes on to say, he goes, Chad, it’s like this. You know, as men, we’re pretty logical. You know, we approach things from a logical way. But women, women are way too emotional. And women just cannot cut these relationships. They can’t separate, you know, business from personal relationships. And if the men can’t get their wives under control, then we have to reassess where they fall in the spectrum of trust. And he had pulled up a picture. He had taken a picture of the dry erase board from Mark Driscoll’s office where Mark Driscoll had just briefed his whole staff on this. And you could see the names and initials next to these numbers on a spectrum going from left to right, zero to ten. And some of the names, there were several names up there that had also been erased. You could tell the dry erase market had been erased a little in certain areas. So maybe it was a mistake or maybe they intentionally erased the name before they took the picture to show me. I have no idea. But his next statement to me was, I think that Trina and Maria are the ringleaders of all of this. So what are you talking about? Ringleaders of what? He’s like, you know, still associating with all these unsafe people and getting everyone together and having these personal relationships and, you know, conspiring against people. And I said, hold on a minute. Are you seriously sitting here telling me all of this? Because you’re, let me guess, you’re basing all of this off of a picture you saw on social media of all of our families. At Easter. We had Easter brunch together at Vlad’s house. So he goes, yeah, how did you know that? Well, one, because I’m not an idiot. And two, you’re talking in circles here around all the people you’re mentioning were in that photo. So what’s the concern? We just served seven services back to back at Easter weekend here at the church. And we all got together to break bread with fellow Christians on the day that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. We’re celebrating that. And you’re more concerned about a picture that we took together. And you’re basing that off of whether or not we can or can be trusted or whether we can or can’t get our wives under control and control who they can be friends with and have those relationships with. So what you’re telling me, what I’m hearing is the church is going to tell us who we can and can’t be friends with. And he goes, no, no, no, no, I’m not. We can’t say that because we can’t tell you who you can and can’t be friends with. All we’re saying is that if you choose to be friends with these people that are unsafe, then we can no longer fellowship with you. Or maybe you can’t serve in a leadership position or serve on security. So you got to pick one or the other. And it says, are you, we need to know, Chad, like, are you guys team Driscoll? Or are you team Blotnick? And I was so confused. Like, what do you guys have against Pastor Dustin and his family? Like, yeah, they were the ones in the photo, but he was a pastor that was fired recently. And, you know, Mark Driscoll and Brandon and the rest of them, they lie about the story. They say that everything was great. They left on great terms. And as soon as Pastor Dustin and his family leaves, they immediately start slandering them and talking bad about them. And now they’re marked on the spectrum of trust and asking me to pick, are you team Driscoll or to slash team Trinity or team Blotnick? And I’m neither. I’m team Jesus, which is why a lot of us now wear team Jesus bracelets based off that conversation.

Julie Roys: So this is the cult-like culture of Trinity Church. And clearly, Mark Driscoll has not gotten healthier with age. In fact, I think he’s probably gotten more abusive and more paranoid. And what was a toxic church at Mars Hill now is a cult at Trinity Church. The way this thing operates, I don’t know how else to say it, that level of control and surveilling people and telling people they’re toxic and a loyalty scale. Again, it’s not loyalty to God. It’s loyalty to Mark Driscoll. But lastly, I want to address something that Mark Driscoll said in his podcast with Jeremy Boring about his family. And here’s what he said.

Mark Driscoll: I love my Lord. I love my wife. I love my kids. I love my grandkids. My whole family loves and serves the Lord. We’re all in ministry. You know, and to me, it’s like your family’s your resume. And who you are is who your family says you are.

Jeremy Boring: So this is something I respect. It is hard raising kids to love the Lord in this culture. And there’s no guarantee with adult kids. They don’t have to have a relationship with you. And if they do, it’s because they choose to. Usually.

Julie Roys: But here’s the thing you need to know about Driscoll’s family and the Trinity Church. It is not a ministry like you and I think of ministry. Behind the scenes, Driscoll is very clear that Trinity is a family business. So here’s this document from the Trinity Church. And under the subheading professional number eight, and this is absolutely stunning to me. Our church is a family business. Friends, churches cannot be businesses. They are nonprofits. They take donations. They cannot exist for the benefit, the financial benefit of the founder and his family. That’s called, the IRS calls that inurement. It’s illegal. Churches can’t be businesses. Now, some people can say, you know, church is a business in the sense it’s a corporation. It runs and it has officers and all these things. And we’ve talked about that before on the Roy’s Report, whether that’s right or wrong, whatever. But a family business, again, something existing to make money for a family, that can’t be a church. That is not what a church is. But it’s no doubt that many Driscolls are part of Trinity Church. Mark’s son-in-law, Zach Driscoll, is a creative arts pastor. Mark’s son, Calvin Driscoll, is a director of discipleship. Ashley Chase, Driscoll’s oldest daughter, works for Real Faith, Mark’s online media and teaching ministry. Her husband, Landon Chase, again, one of the guys that was surveilling this family from the church 24-7. He’s the CEO of Real Faith. He also works a side gig, I guess, in real estate. This is nepotism, friends. Again, a church is not a business. It’s a nonprofit run on people’s donations. And it’s alarming whenever you see a ministry and there’s a whole bunch of people from the pastor’s family involved. Are they the most qualified? Is this good stewardship to put them there? And again, we have no idea because they don’t publish at Trinity Church how much the salaries are. We don’t know how much they make. And so basically, Driscoll is putting these people on the payroll who are members of his family. So why do families usually remain in the family business? Well, they do it if it’s a good job, if it’s good money, right? So when Driscoll says, oh, my family’s all in ministry and they’re all, you know, serving the Lord and they’re all like my best friends. No, I’m not sure I buy all that. What that says is that it’s a good job. Your family business is a good job, Mark. And your kids, a number of them, has decided to stay in the family business. But why do control freaks like Mark, like Mark Driscoll, why do control freaks enjoy employing the family? Well, one, it’s a way to get loyalty. We’ve already seen Mark really values loyalty. He puts people on a scale of how loyal they are. Also, it’s a way of giving inheritance to your children, right? It’s a way to enrich your children and their families. It’s also a way to control them. When you have control of the purse springs, you have an awful lot of leverage. And if you think Driscoll likes to control his church members, you should hear what he does with his kids. Recently on a podcast with Vince Manoali, again, that teenager whose family Driscoll booted from the church for kissing his daughter, Alexi, when they were both teenagers, well, now it’s four years later. And Vince has published a book about his experience up close and personal with the Driscoll family. And the control he described on that podcast is absolutely creepy. This clip that you’re about to hear begins with the two of us, Vince and I, and I encourage you to go and listen to this. It’s such a good podcast. It begins with us discussing a text that John Wellnick, who’s a leader at the Trinity Church, sent to Vince, instructing him, again, get this, instructing him on how to navigate dating a Driscoll. So you have a leader, one of the pastors at Trinity, that’s giving dating advice on how to date the Driscolls. And the Landon that is referenced in this clip is Landon Chase, again, Mark’s son-in-law. Take a listen.

He’s sending you a text saying, you know, we can talk tomorrow. I’d skip Landon, honestly. He doesn’t speak for Lexi. PMD does.

Vince Manoeli: Meaning Pastor Mark Driscoll.

Julie Roys: Pastor Mark, almost like she doesn’t have autonomy. Like she’s owned by her father.

Vince Manoeli: Yeah, that’s what it was like. I mean, it literally was Driscoll spoke for her. He says Landon doesn’t speak for her, but Driscoll basically appointed Landon to be like her watcher. And she would even tell me like it was to a point where obviously there was times she loved him, you know, their in-laws. But other times she told me it was flat out creepy, like the control Landon had over her because he felt like he was appointed by Mark to speak for her.

Julie Roys: That entire podcast with Vince Manuele was extremely revealing. I mean, the idea that Mark Driscoll would actually appoint his son-in-law to follow around his daughter and make sure she stays in line and manage her relationships with people. I mean, that is so entirely creepy. And I encourage you to go back, listen to the whole thing. It is a fascinating and revealing look, inside look, to the Driscoll family. And it’s yet another data point showing Mark Driscoll to be a toxic control freak. And for Vince Manuele, Driscoll’s control meant that he and his family got booted from the church. Why? For kissing his daughter? I mean, unbelievable. And Vince’s relationship with Alexi Driscoll was completely severed. And that’s sad. It really is sad. But it’s nothing compared to what Driscoll has done to his children’s in-laws. In 2021, I interviewed Jolie Monea. She’s the mother of Chloe Driscoll, who is married to Mark’s son, Zach Driscoll. And Jolie told me that Mark Driscoll’s cult-like demand for loyalty drove a wedge in her family, simply because Jolie, again, similar behavior associated with a family that had been kicked out of Trinity Church. I believe it was the Manuelis. Her daughter and son-in-law severed their relationship with Jolie, her husband, and their four kids. Friends, that is so disturbing. Doug and Pauline Chase, the parents of Landon Chase, who was married to Driscoll’s daughter, Astley Chase, have a similar story. The Chase’s other son, Luke Chase, told blogger Warren Throckmorton that Driscoll deemed his parents toxic. And as a result, he was told he needed to get out of their house. And if he didn’t move out fast enough, he’d be fired. Now, Luke didn’t go into detail or explain why Driscoll deemed his parents toxic, but he said his parents had led a large, growing, integrity-filled ministries in both Seattle and Arizona for more than 15 years. They’re clearly not toxic people. Luke resigned from his position at Trinity because of the way Trinity talked about his parents and the way that they dictated who he could and couldn’t be friends with. But Landon Chase remains married to a Driscoll. And as a result, his relationship with his parents is seriously strained. So if Mark Driscoll’s family is his resume and two of his children’s spouses are estranged from their parents because of Mark, what does that resume say? From what I understand from talking to them, if you are not under Mark’s authority, you can’t be part of the family. I have adult kids who are married, and we get along great with our in-laws. I can’t even fathom coercing our son-in-law or daughter-in-law to break off their relationship with their parents. That is so unbelievably sick and twisted, but that is Mark Driscoll. But Jeremy Boring didn’t address any of those damning details in his podcast with Driscoll. Instead, he completely went along with Driscoll’s victim narrative and said nothing to challenge Driscoll as he painted himself as this generous, forgiving human being.

Jeremy Boring: Your betrayal is vast. I mean, there’s so many people implicated in what happened to you, you know, even in the now times, not in the before times.

Mark Driscoll: Yeah.

Jeremy Boring: That’s a lot of ongoing betrayal. That’s a lot of ongoing injury. How do you orient yourself toward them practically versus how you orient yourself toward them internally?

Mark Driscoll: Yeah, part of it is you don’t seek vengeance. You know, you don’t say, this guy committed adultery, that guy committed adultery, that guy’s apostate, that guy’s doing same-sex weddings, that guy’s in a homosexual relationship. Because you know everybody’s story. This is one of the hard parts about being a pastor. Your job is to tell the truth and get lied about.

Jeremy Boring: Yeah.

Mark Driscoll: That’s the job. So if somebody says something about you, whether it’s true or false, you’re not allowed to return fire because it was in a counseling situation or it’s in pastoral confidence. Or just as a general rule, if it’s like, you know, the reason the guy hates me is because he was cheating on his wife and I called him out. Nobody wants you to say that publicly because nobody wants their pastor to be the guy that under pressure tells everybody their business.

Jeremy Boring: Yeah.

Mark Driscoll: So you’re in this position where it’s like you can’t seek vengeance, so you’ve got to swallow a lot.

Julie Roys: Friends, that is a lie. Mark Driscoll is one of the most vengeful people I’ve ever reported on. He punished an entire family because their teenage son kissed his teenage daughter. Then he surveilled them 24-7. Then he punished staff members for sharing a meal with a fired staff member now deemed toxic. He breaks up families of his children’s spouses. He cusses out staff and demeans them. He tells lies about his former elders at Mars Hill. He invents paranoid stories about them setting a trap for him. Mark Driscoll is not a shepherd. He is a wolf. And Jeremy Boring just lent his platform to Driscoll to lie to tens of thousands of people. It’s absolutely scandalous. And it tells me a lot about Jeremy Boring. But Boring made it even worse. As I mentioned earlier, the podcast with Driscoll sparked a firestorm of controversy. So Boring published a second podcast addressing the controversy. And on that podcast, he doubled down. He said Driscoll was the perfect gentleman in his home. And he suggested that those who have a problem with Driscoll are making a mountain out of a molehill. Jeremy, Driscoll has harmed scores of people made in God’s image. I urge you to take down your podcast with him and apologize sincerely to the public. That is the only honorable thing to do at this point. Before I end this podcast, I want to bring on Lance Ford, our Director of Restoration Resources at The Roy’s Report, who has a stunning podcast coming up with a former elder candidate at Mars Hill. This man was in the room to witness one of the worst cases of spiritual abuse committed by Mark Driscoll. And Lance, this is a stunning example of elders failing to do their job.

Lance Ford: Yeah, it really is, Julie. And that’s why I wanted to interview Rob Thane-Smith, who’s recently come out with a book. Rob was just a few weeks away. Well, he was actually about a week away from becoming ordained as an elder when the famous throw him under the bus statement was made because of an event with the elders. It’s stunning because it shows what happens when evil triumphs because good men do nothing. We’ve heard that all of our life. And this is a perfect example of it. Elders have to put the flock first before they put a shepherd first. And at Mars Hill, we had a prime example of the failure to do that. And it’s a case study that I believe that all churches should embrace and all elder boards should embrace. So it’s going to be a good episode that’s going to be a learning moment for us as well.

Julie Roys: So, friends, you’re not going to want to miss that. That is going to be an outstanding podcast. And I think a perfect podcast to come directly after this one about Mark Driscoll. It, again, will show you about the character or lack of character of this man and what happens when a church fails to do what it needs to do. And so I hope you will join us for that. Lance, can’t wait. Can’t wait to see that. Thanks so much.

Lance Ford: Thanks.

Julie Roys: Thanks so much for watching this episode of The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. And if you appreciate our work here at The Roy’s Report, would you please consider supporting us with a donation? Investigative reporting is very time intensive and specialized work. And the only way we can do it is with the help of people like you. So to donate, just go to roysreport.com slash donate. And when you give a gift of $50 or more, we’ll send you a copy of When Shepherds Pray by Ron Cantor, who’s become a trusted voice of truth and accountability in this space. His book is a valuable resource confronting abuse in church leadership, calling for reformation, and helping you see how you can be part of the solution. So again, to give a gift, just go to roysreport.com slash donate. And just a reminder to please subscribe to The Roy’s Report on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way you’ll never miss an episode. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today and God bless.